In this episode…

Zoom can be convenient, but Ms. Laura DuPriest prefers in-person depositions and trials to avoid technical difficulties and better connect with the parties. With her experience in the beauty industry, she understands the impact of presence and notes that juries will size up experts based on their demeanor despite court instructions.

Check out the full episode for our conversation on travel billing, the importance of expert witnesses to fair defenses, and forming a concise opinion.

 

Note: Transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.

Host: Noah Bolmer, Round Table Group

Guest: Laura DuPriest, President, Laura DuPriest Inc

Noah Bolmer: Welcome to Engaging Experts. I’m your host, Noah Bolmer, and today I’m excited to welcome Miss Laura DuPriest to the show. Miss DuPriest is the founder of a day spa and cosmetics line. She is also a clinical licensed esthetician, manicurist, cosmetologist, and spa therapist. Ms. DuPriest is a published author and sought-after expert witness with over 20 years of experience as an expert witness. Miss DuPriest, thank you for joining me here on Engaging Experts.

Laura DuPriest: Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure.

Noah Bolmer: From runway model to entrepreneur, you have over 40 years of beauty expertise. How did you get involved in expert witnessing?

Laura DuPriest: That’s a question you ask many experts, and many of my friends and family ask me the same question. I initially got involved because I was doing the hair of a client who happened to be an attorney, and he knew I was a makeup artist. This was in my salon in downtown Sacramento at the Hyatt Regency where we saw a lot of businesspeople. He said, “Laura, I need to ask you a question about how makeup can cover bruises.” I thought that’s an odd question from a male. I said, “Sure, regarding what?” He explained that he had a case where there was a domestic violence situation. He was defending one of the parties who claimed that the other party had falsified physical abuse, and they believed this was done with makeup or makeup creation. I can’t remember exactly how it went, and I agreed to look at it and he had me testify in court just as a makeup artist, not as an expert. Then a few years later, in 2005, I got a phone call from a law firm in Oregon who wanted to know if I could look at a file and be their expert. I didn’t understand at that time what expert meant in the legal world. In my world, it was someone who was good at something. I agreed to look at the file and I gave him my opinion in a phone call.

Noah Bolmer: Sure.

Laura DuPriest: Well, then, what came next was, “Can you write a report?” I said, “Okay.” I had to contact some friends who were attorneys to find out what you do when you write a report. My engagement initially was from a novice point of view, and it took one case a year, requested by attorneys from California mostly, until finally it got to be an understanding with myself that this was something that many people do in different fields. It started as a trickle.

Noah Bolmer: That’s interesting. You mentioned that when you were first brought on, you had to do a little bit of outside research to find out what an expert witness report is. What exactly is the format? How does this go? Would you advise attorneys who are working with newer expert witnesses that they could be doing a better job informing their new expert witnesses what is required of them?

Laura DuPriest: That’s a good question. The center of my universe is integrity and authenticity. I always say if you don’t know, ask, which I did, and there’s a way to come from the expert witness position in different manners. For instance, some people take classes to become certified experts. I’ve never done that because I was still engaged in my career. At the time, I owned salons and was a celebrity hairstylist as well as a regular hairstylist. What that means is that I had my clientele from the neighborhood at my salons. I also had people that I had fly me to be a hairstylist and makeup artist. I still fly places for my clinical work. You’re always caught between how to handle your expert work with your clinical work and a lot of us are experts, and many attorneys want an expert to still be in their field so they can be current and relevant to whatever is going on. That’s a long-winded answer to your question, but attorneys always want to assume that their expert is experienced. Many people are not, they can be experts in their field but are very unfamiliar with legal language. What a report looks like. How to present a report, even after 20 years in the business. I asked my counselors, “What format do you want the report?” Some of them would want it in a Word document, and others want it in a pleading document. To answer your question, I think when attorneys solicit or hire an expert, no matter what their CV says, to give them a framework as far as what they’re looking for in the opinion, the final report, or testimony, if that makes any sense.

Noah Bolmer: It does. Let’s talk more about those initial phone calls. You get a call from an attorney, a paralegal, or somebody from their office. How does that phone call go? What are the things they are looking for and what are the things you’re looking for when deciding to accept an expert engagement?

Laura DuPriest: Good question. First, I always want to make sure the people soliciting my expertise know I am a consultant and an expert witness because I approach the case as a consultant. I will consult with you briefly for 10 or 15 minutes on the phone to find out a few things. I do not want to involve myself in a case where I know I won’t be able to either defend it or find standards have been violated. First step, before that, to make sure that I have no conflicts/ I set up a 10–15-minute phone call or Zoom call. We want to make sure that I haven’t heard from the opposing counsel on the case in some format. If there are no conflicts of interest in me being a participant in the case, then I let them tell me what happened, basically, “What happened in your view?” Then, the next step is I ask a few questions because I want to make sure that I’m a good representational fit for their case.

Noah Bolmer: You’ve decided that this makes sense and it’s a good fit. What are the next steps from there? Do you have any specific terms that you like in your contracts? For example, do you take a retainer? Do you like to bill project rates? Hourly rates. How do you handle your contracts?

Laura DuPriest: That’s a good question. In the beginning, I did not have a clue how to do any of this. I was reliant on the legal law firms and would [ask] them, “Do you have a standard agreement?” Eventually, they would e-mail them to me. After having several of those, I compiled my own agreement template. It’s a basic template agreement. I send it with my rate and ask for a retainer or the equivalent of 10 hours upfront to start the case. What that retainer ensures that counselors are is I can hold time. It gives them the assurance that I have the time and the bandwidth in my schedule, whether it be with hair or all the things that I do to see that case through. It’s a 10-hour upfront fee and then I bill against that per hour. I will send them the fee schedule as well.

Noah Bolmer: Have you done a significant amount of travel as an expert witness? I know you do it for your clinical work, but have you, as an expert witness done significant travel?

Laura DuPriest: I will tell you that before COVID, there were only two cases where I traveled to do a trial. When I was in Southern California, they wanted to travel to me for a deposition. I assume it was convenient, or to see Southern California, or family, as an attachment to that. Then, COVID hit, and many courts shut down. There wasn’t much activity. Now, since COVID many courts and judges allow Zoom testimony and Zoom depositions, so travel has been less. I will say in larger cases involving business disputes, patent cases, and things like that, there is still an in-presence need for all trials and depositions.

Noah Bolmer: When it comes to travel, is this typically on a reimbursement basis or do they arrange travel for? How do you typically handle travel in your contracts and then mechanically?

Laura DuPriest: I will talk about the travel fee in my contracts. There’s a dollar-per-hour fee for air travel. If I’m traveling in the air and I am working on and studying for a different case, I won’t bill the original attorney for my travel. I never double-bill. I’m careful about that. I don’t bill for the time in the hotel. I’m easygoing because, obviously, I have other things that I can do. Travel is billed as stated in the contract per hour. A lesser fee, of course, than expert testimony. I am responsible for my travel arrangements. All the travel you arrange is on a refundable basis in case the case settles. Then you add that to your billing once travel has concluded.

Noah Bolmer: You mentioned Zoom, and interestingly, I’ve heard from many expert witnesses that a lot of their depositions, and even trials have moved to Zoom. In general, how do you feel about telepresence in court actions? Do you enjoy them? Do you like being at home around the kitty cat or do you prefer to be there? Is there a difference in the way that you connect to a jury, or must present yourself in terms of demeanor? How has Zoom affected you as an expert witness?

Laura DuPriest: I can’t speak for what the attorneys may feel, but in-presence is immensely more valuable. In the first place, I worry when I’m scheduled for a Zoom testimony. I worry about technical difficulties. Let’s face it, as a witness, I must operate my own technical side. On my end, I don’t have someone sitting with me to take care if something goes wrong. That’s always stressful for me. For me, and the attorneys that I’ve worked with felt that an in-person witness has more impact. It has more of an impact when the jury can see you in person. There’s an impact as well when the jury sees you walking to and away from the bench. They’re sizing up your credibility in all instances, no matter what the judge’s instructions. That is my personal feeling, but let’s face it, I’m from the beauty industry where the visual is everything. Everything about the beauty business has a visual side to it, so I’m going to be the person that will say I feel that in-presence testimony, even in a deposition with attorneys present in the room, has more impact.

Noah Bolmer: That’s an interesting connection between your work in the beauty niche with expert witnessing. In what way has your work in the beauty industry affected the way that you go about expert witnessing and connecting with juries?

Laura DuPriest: Let’s start with a paper report. They can be dry if they’re filled with words. The way I started out as a witness was testifying about injuries that may or may not have happened in a salon, and if they did happen, was there a standard that was violated? Many times, they’re purely an accident. Other times there was negligence involved with that injury. I like to show exactly what we’re talking about, because if you say someone got a burn from a chemical on their head that doesn’t have as much impact as showing the result of a bald spot. Visually- I’m a visual person anyway, and that came from the beauty and modeling worlds. A picture can paint impact and body language in the way someone presents can give people an understanding of how credible they are, for instance. That’s just my feeling.

Noah Bolmer: Let’s back up a bit and talk about preparation. When you’re getting ready for a deposition or a trial, what sort of routines do you have? I’ve had expert witnesses tell me that they like to have a big meal or coffee, meditate, or do nothing special. Do you have a pre-deposition or pretrial ritual that helps you prepare yourself for what’s coming?

Laura DuPriest: As far as that day is concerned, prepare for it as if you are a stage performer preparing for a performance, no, not at all, because depositions are usually not scheduled for early morning. They’re usually a 9 or 10 a.m. event. I try not to have too much coffee, but as an expert who has done more than one or two depositions, you are perfectly welcome to take breaks as you need to. Don’t worry about that side of it. I like to be extraordinarily prepared and what I mean by that is, I review everything from the beginning when I wrote my report. I always review my opinion report, but I also review opposing counsel’s expert opinions, to make sure that I have every understanding. It’s like- you can’t fake an exam. You must be prepared. Preparation for me is making sure I have enough sleep and a day or two ahead of time to thoroughly prepare. If you’re thoroughly prepared then really, I don’t have any other trade secrets.

Noah Bolmer: Are there a couple of stories or cases that you recall that either changed the way that you go about some fundamental part of expert witnessing or reinforced something that you already do?

Laura DuPriest: The biggest advice or experience I can give, or experience- and I will tag a few stories in here, every time you read a case, read their experts reports thoroughly. Not only what they say, but how they format them and what standards they are using. It’s interesting because in my field, I have not found made-up standards, but standards that are irrelevant. For instance, somebody might have been injured this way in a salon, the opposing counsel might cite that they didn’t wear gloves, but the wearing of the gloves had nothing to do with the injury. In other words, many experts will throw spaghetti on the wall and hope something sticks. I try not to do that because as I’m reading those reports, I can see what their process is. I want to opine on specific, concise standards that were particular to what happened in the injury or in a manufacturing case. For instance, in that case being very concise is important to me and not filling the report up with extra words that aren’t important to the case. I have learned to hone my own ability to articulate by reading other experts, even if they’re dry, boring, and long, I read them, and it gives me a lot of insight.

Noah Bolmer: As somebody who’s worked on both the defense and plaintiff side as an expert witness, I imagine that you’ve had to write rebuttal reports which involve exactly what you’re talking about, taking the other person’s report apart. Do you prefer working for either the plaintiff or the defendant side for writing initial or rebuttal reports?

Laura DuPriest: I don’t, because in the beginning I was asked by both sides, and since I wasn’t experienced on how the defense side, or the plaintiff side worked. For example, take an injury case. If someone gets hurt, I have compassion for them, but it can often be inflated as far as how much money should be awarded for that. I have to look at that side of it as well as the fact that in our legal system, everyone deserves a defense. That’s the way our legal system is built. I used to thin, “How can I work defending someone who hurts somebody?” Again, I love my industry. The salon industry is amazing with many talented people, so I want to make sure that the facts are relevant to the case. In defending someone involved in injuring someone in a salon, it must be presented in a truthful and real way. I have said many times injuries are an unfortunate accident versus somebody who is not following regulations, sanitary rules, and causing harm.

Noah Bolmer: Have you worked on a lot of extensive teams behind the scenes? Do you work with or alongside other expert witnesses when you are on an engagement?

Laura DuPriest: In larger cases that involve manufacturing, for instance, I’ve worked on a couple of patent cases, and I can’t speak a lot about that because one of them is still pending. In that regard, it involves a lot of moving parts. It’s not one person cutting someone’s hair and something happened. In that instance there can be many reasons to bring in different experts versed in the engineering of a product. Someone who understands the chemistry of a product. I’ve had to be on a team with- on the last big team I worked with, there were eight other experts. I must review their reports as well so that I understand how they contributed to the case.

Noah Bolmer: Do you work closely with them, or do you feel cordoned off from each other?

Laura DuPriest: We do work together closely, but what does happen is if I’m opining on parts of my report in an area, for instance, where I’m not a doctor. Often, I will read an emergency room report to understand how soon after the salon injury did the plaintiff go to the hospital? I will read the medical report, but I’m clearly staying my line of cosmetology because I’m not a doctor. I don’t talk to the doctor, but I might read their report. If I have questions, counselors may set up a Zoom meeting where I can Zoom with the physician to get my questions answered. I would say this is the most important aspect of being an expert. You don’t step outside of those lines. An example of that is I’ve come across another cosmetology expert and I learned to not cross the line because they were disqualified in a particular case for offering a medical opinion. It’s important that when you’re working with a team of experts that you stay in your lane if that makes any sense.

Noah Bolmer: It does. You mentioned earlier that this small niche and there is only a handful of experts doing exactly what you do. Does that mean that you come face to face with the same group of experts time after time when you get called before a case?

Laura DuPriest: Yes. I have two people in my field, who I see regularly on the opposing side. When the attorneys interviewed me, they told me that we found you, but there’s nobody else in the field. I’ve heard that a lot too in the cosmetology field because career professionals in the cosmetology world may not have had the opportunity to become an expert or not stay in the field long enough. I’m rare. This is my 44th year in the cosmetology field. I started as a manicurist and then, after 10 years, moved to aesthetics and then hair. I continued to do all three as a matter of fact, because of my clientele. There aren’t many experts in my field because individuals don’t stay in that field for a long time. For instance, they might interrupt their career to have a baby, or they got into the hair field, and they didn’t find it enjoyable.

Noah Bolmer: Does that ever create any friction between you and other expert witnesses? If you see them time after time and you have to take each other apart or does it make it easier because you understand who it is that you’re going to be coming up against?

Laura DuPriest: I’ve never interacted with other experts, except one. It was an isolated case. It wasn’t a salon injury case. You don’t interact with them, and you get used to the report. Sometimes I can say to the attorney interviewing me, who is your expert on the other side, and they’ll let me know and I’ll say, “I’ve seen their reports before. This is what I anticipate they will opine on.” You can anticipate that to a degree. I haven’t interacted directly with them. I have respect for anyone who is an expert in this field because you didn’t get there because you were a beginner in your field. Obviously, there’s tremendous respect. I don’t always agree with the opinion, but there is respect.

Noah Bolmer: What makes for a good relationship from the outset and then ongoing between an expert and the attorney they’re engaged by?

Laura DuPriest: I can go by what I think, and I can also share feedback I’ve received. Transparency and communication. In a couple of instances, when the attorney had a schedule anticipated that was faster than they allowed for they asked me for a report the next week. I let them know what my parameters are and what my availability is and see if there’s a way to work it out or I don’t take the case. Secondly, is to make sure, if I’m delayed- Sometimes, I’m working on a report and have promised it will be arriving in the next week, then an emergency situation will come up [involving] a case from a month ago, I’ll let them know I’ve had a slight delay and I will be circling back to their case on this day. I find if you have good communication skills and let them know what’s going on you can always reach an agreement. Other than that, make sure you’re transparent especially in the initial interview particularly in defense work. If the injury was going to be settled on the plaintiff’s behalf and against the salon that I’ve been asked to defend, I’ll be upfront and say this is what happened, and these are the mistakes that were made. I’m going to let you know that I’m not the right person for you or I won’t be able to officially opine on the report because it won’t benefit you. Let them know.

Noah Bolmer: Sure. Do you find that it’s important to solicit feedback from your engagements? Many expert witnesses may leave the action long before it’s finished because they only need to do a portion in court or because it goes to settlement, and they might not hear from the attorney after that. Should expert witnesses be soliciting feedback to see how they did? What did they do right and how could they improve? Is that something you prefer to learn on your own?

Laura DuPriest: No. I always ask for feedback and when a case settles, if the attorney calls me personally or their paralegal does, or they send me an e-mail and we’ve been familiar during the engagement through regular Zoom calls or regular phone calls, I always ask for a 10-minute Zoom wrap up call. I do a Zoom because I want to be able to understand if there was something that they felt I was lacking in or could improve, but they often don’t have time for that. I feel that out by their pace. Some people don’t. There are attorneys when they send me an e-mail that the case has settled offering some a positive opinion, like, “It was wonderful to work with you and I look forward to working with you again.” Sometimes that could be their standard wrap-up for a case, but many times they’ll recommend me for another case. It depends on- attorneys are so busy. That’s one thing I didn’t understand as an expert, and I now have great empathy for because I have a daughter that’s an attorney, I now understand the world on the other side. The time constraints and the available bandwidth on an attorney’s schedule is rough. I understand that more now than I did 20 years ago when I started.

Noah Bolmer: It’s certainly changed. Before we wrap up, you mentioned before that you don’t do a lot of marketing. Have you found that expert witness referral services have been useful?

Laura DuPriest: I never went looking for expert work. Expert work found me because as I said, there are very few of us in the cosmetology and beauty fields as experts. I feel like it should be a natural occurrence. An attorney can find you if they need you and if they need the help of a referral service then that’s beneficial. I leave that up to the natural process. The organic evolution of how that occurs, because as an expert, you must remain in your corner of the world true to the nature of your business. Whereas in the hair world we market to people all the time and we’re always trying to let them know what our abilities and services are. It’s different in expert work, but when I’ve been contacted by a referral agency, I will fill out the profile, so they have my information, but I haven’t found that- It hasn’t been in my wheelhouse to actively go and solicit. I’ve been fortunate to be busy.

Noah Bolmer: Before we wrap up, do you have any last advice for expert witnesses, particularly newer expert witnesses or even attorneys working with newer expert witnesses?

Laura DuPriest: What does help is to have a clear statement of facts that they could read over the phone or if they don’t want to email them, but a statement of facts so that you can see, for instance, the name of the salon, the state- because what I’ll initially do is a quick overview of the laws in that state. I’m licensed in North Carolina and in California but many of the statutes overlap and are consistent with their standards. Knowing a little more about the case and what exactly happened not- for instance, she went to a nail salon, and they hurt her nail. That doesn’t help. I need to know if there was an illegal tool used. Did they pull it out of their pocket or a drawer instead of out of a sanitary container? Some facts are helpful so that we can figure out if there is a standard and a violation of standards that could be assessed for the case. As far as experts go, read up about it. Do some research on what it takes to be an expert. I would not necessarily sign up for a certification program because I think it’s important in our field not to be a pay-to-play expert witness. You learn on the job, and you learn case by case, but you can certainly do research on what it takes to be an expert witness and things like that. If that makes sense.

Noah Bolmer: It does. Sage advice. Ms. DuPriest, thank you for joining me here today.

Laura DuPriest: You’re very welcome.

Noah Bolmer: And thank you to our listeners for joining me for another episode of Engaging Experts. Cheers.

Laura DuPriest, President, Laura DuPriest Inc.

Ms. Laura DuPriest, a licensed esthetician, manicurist, cosmetologist, and spa therapist. She is also an entrepreneur, published author, and expert witness with over 20 years of experience.